Possible design flaws? with NPC Aggro

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by ScientiaPotestasEst, Jun 22, 2015.

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  1. ScientiaPotestasEst

    ScientiaPotestasEst Someday Author

    In my experience, it appears that bosses (and champion mobs) tend to attack the highest dps player in the group. With the exception of (stationary) gorga and khalys, this means that the dragonknight class/player must output more dps than other players in the group to hold aggro, while also expected to tank the boss.

    To emphasize, the dragonknight must be at least equal (if not the highest) dps in the group to hold aggro and also have the highest survival (hp & armor & resist) to tank the bosses. Given that most (and all endgame) bosses are immune to the effects of slow and armor breaks, other classes can not bring anything useful to the group besides dps.

    By that logic, 5 strong dragonknights would make the best boss killing group (by having highest sustained dps and survival). Thus, dragonknights are the main class while rangers/mages/dwarfs are just supports (of which bosses are immune, against slow, armor break etc.), therefore by comparison, useless.

    Without an aggro skill, dk will need 2h weapons to exceed the dps of ranger/mages (unless groupmates are much weaker in comparison to that dk), which makes 1h+shield dk obsolete in boss fights, along with those other classes.

    This forces dk to use 2h and hurts player's choice and diversity in character building.

    Because boss scales with number of players in the group, it is therefore more beneficial to that strong dk to solo than carry 4 other players, (faster in killing, less time spent on looking for group, less essence usage, less potions usage if needed, etc.)

    This is detrimental to promoting group play.

    What's the point of dps classes if they are incapable of dealing more dps than the tank class, as not to draw aggro? Sure, if with weak dps dk, rangers/mages can lower dps to match the dk, but that is counterproductive.


    Herold difficult setting boss for the event is one example of this. Mortis is another.
     
  2. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    I agree, an aggro skill would bring back the classic tank DK. As it is, 2H heal-dps DK is the better tank solution.

    Other ideas - use multiple dwarves with multiple dwarf turrets for partial dps. Each dwarf puts one mech turret on mortis and the other on the souls. This should add some consistent damage on Mortis without pulling aggro. A team of DKs and dwarves could conceivably share the load on mortis and thus allow the use of purples or blues while keeping mortis locked in place.
     
  3. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Herald of the underworld and Destructor are not like the other bosses ... they don't attack the players with the highest DPS.
    If you are far enough from any other boss he won't attack you. (ex. mortis)
    Gorga is attacking the nearest opponent ... if you summon the minion (ex. guardian) close to her she will attack the minion not the player.
    Khalys and Sigrismar are attacking the nearest opponents as well ... but in different way. They can hit multiple players in same time ... thus the players are sharing the damage they are receiving ... instead of one player absorbing the whole damage.
     
  4. sirsquishy

    sirsquishy Junior Expert

    Interesting observation, the game directs the choice with certain gear set enhancements or skill choices that forces the choice in which direction a DK takes. Building a very strong 1h is possible, but would take considerably more time, patience and luck. The possible skill choices make the decision to go 1h a little tougher in my opinion. Add to that some sets like Warlord also give huge differences to the 2h setup.
     
  5. ScientiaPotestasEst

    ScientiaPotestasEst Someday Author

    Herald & Destructor chase after the player with the highest sustained dps. Distance between the players and boss is also a factor, but it minimally affects the aggro in comparison to dps output.

    I do not understand what you mean by being far enough from mortis. Are you saying that if you are far enough from mortis, the boss will not target you while you attack it? I do not think this is the case, or otherwise one would see Youtube flooded with ranged classes (rangers, mages, 2h-dwarves) soloing mortis without being hit once. If you mean in group with dk tanking mortis, I assure you that it is very much possible for mages and rangers to steal mortis aggro from the DK, if the DK's dps is low in comparison.

    Gorga, Sigris, and Khalys are stationary bosses. They attack the player in melee range (ie. often DK). Even then, they will target/face the player dealing the most damage in melee range. If you go in a group of multiple DK, you can tell which player has the strongest dps by looking at which player the boss targets the most. I do agree on the spellweaver's minion being the exception, it will draw aggro on gorga regardless of dps output of players.

    Other players (mainly rangers and their deadly blow and lower dps DKs) do not need to be hit by stationary bosses as "collateral damage/ share the damage", just move behind it (or to the other side for gorga) and let the highest dps player tank the damage facing one direction.

    -- MERGED --

    While it is certainly interesting to have a team of DKs & dwarves, but one would have a better outcome simply by having a full DK group DPSing down mortis (my opinion). I do believe DKs are much better at outputting sustained DPS than the dwarf class, especially with large amount of rage generated from being hit in boss battles combined with the fury of the dragon lvl42 skill + smashes. Even better, just solo mortis as a DK, instead of grouping. Less chance of failure if the DK is strong enough and less time spent looking for a group. This, however, hurts group play.

    To sirsquishy, I agree it is entirely possible to make a strong 1h+shield DK that rival a 2h DK's dps, but the opportunity cost (time & money) is too high. 1h+shield DK is great for soloing difficult maps that you are not certain you will survive, like the blazing inferno and maybe circus monstrorum. But for group play, most players especially rangers/mages/dwarves will want a 2h dk tank over a 1h dk, both for faster boss killing and for their own survival/risk of death from being chased by boss :). In the end, I do believe it is much easier to find a group as a high dps 2h than with 1h. PvP, however, is another matter.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Jun 22, 2015
  6. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I did an in depth look at the three types of agro in this game. Here is the link, and below is the content.
    The second half of the last paragraph should explain the special cases of Herald and Mortis.



    There are three basic kinds of agro in this game. Visual agro, damage agro, and forced agro.

    Visual agro is when the mob goes after whoever it sees first. This is the lowest priority off agro.

    The second type is damage agro. This is based on how much damage you are doing. If two people with different DPS are attacking the same monster, generally, the person doing the most damage has the mobs attention. Distance seems to factor into this some too in favor of melee range, but not as heavily as damage. This is second in priority too (higher than visual, lower than forced). If you attack a monster that is chasing someone else who only has visual agro, you will "steal" the agro from them.

    The last kind of agro is the highest priority and supersedes both other kinds. That is forced agro. The only two things that do this are the Dwarf-in-a-box skill and the SW's guardian (if the appropriate skill is selected). This can steal agro from anyone, with the exception of most bosses who are immune to the effect.

    That covers the basics. There are exceptions like in defend quests where I think the monsters start with a biased damage agro for the NPC they are attacking. I think this because, with enough DPS, you can pull their attention to you from the NPC (the icy minion in the new moon event for example) There are also stationary bosses who will always only agro to a melee character if one is present (ex, Gorga, Sigris, Khalys). If more than one is present, normal agro rules apply between the melee characters. The last special case is damage agro resets. It seems that some bosses, most notably Mortis, have a moment when their agro can shift for no apparent reason. I think that this occurs after he does his spin that hits a quarter of the map. After he does this, his attention will shift to someone else if they hit before the tank.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
  7. ScientiaPotestasEst

    ScientiaPotestasEst Someday Author

    Quality post and very informative. I like it. :)

    I would like to add that in practice, boss goes after the player with the highest DPS, as distance and visual are secondary to damage while forced are not practical to have a 100% uptime due to duration and cooldown of such skills from dwarves & mages.

    This means the main tank still needs the highest DPS without an aggro skill, and is a design flaw that limits player's choices and gear diversity, which in turn (indirectly) promotes solo play for content intended specifically for group play.
     
  8. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    This game does not have a very complex hate system.

    A tank can start the attack and other dps classes can use what ever means to deal slow damage to the boss till you have it low enough to zerg it down. You can even have the one dd that does not have the highest damage start and when the boss goes after him the higher dd starts in on him. Find a rythem for each boss no need to have at it solo unless you want to.
     
  9. sirsquishy

    sirsquishy Junior Expert

    Therein lies the flaw. The game makes it easier to go 2h, yet grouping requires the DK to be the strongest in the group which also takes more effort since the monsters scale along with the group.

    Even as a newer 2h DK I can solo any map with the exception of Destructor and Mortis (so far, as I have not opened any past Mortis yet).

    If I choose to group, I'm forced to add a strong DK so they can hold aggro. This leads to the main issue since the stronger Dk's don't need to group because it is honestly easier and sometimes faster to run the map solo. Kind of weird for a mmo.
     
  10. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    Let me explain how you would do a few bosses.

    Heredur
    DK Brings him into the corner where the grave is. DK Blocks him in other DD get on other side of Grave site. Kill him. DK just needs to survive.

    Mortis
    DK kills skelliedragon when mortis pops he says in. DK takes mortis to a corner and keeps him active groups takes turns with ghosts and hitting mortis one time then run away next person hits one time runs away and repeat once everyone has a turn. Suggested skills... Meteor Mage Presion shot ranger scrap metal mech. Just have the DD coordinate attacks so they are not pulling hate/aggro.
     
  11. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    The knowledge level of DPS group members in this game is minimal when it comes to agro. Most of the time they just get pull agro and blame the tank. It is the group members job to not pull agro off the tank and there are several ways a DPS can avoid it. Mega's post below is one way. Truth is the game is not built around the atypical main tank/healer system and it is usually not a big deal if they pull agro other than the annoyance factor. If the DPS can't take a few hits while the tank gets agro back then they need a little training. Too bad there is no agro meter to help with the management.

    On fights that need it, I don't attack for a period of time, or start without ess for 8 to 10 hits. It helps to know your tank and their capabilities and not put them into the position of chasing.
     
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  12. ScientiaPotestasEst

    ScientiaPotestasEst Someday Author

    And there lies the design flaw. This is the first mmo game that I know of, with specific roles of tank, dps and support where the dps does less damage than the tank class (either by choice through not attacking or downgrade essence or simply not capable due to 1h dps of dps class vs 2h tank) and bosses are immune to all supports' CC (ie. no debuff on boss or buff on party; meaning supports useless).

    If your dps is lower than the designated tank class, then your value as a group member is significantly lower as a tank can dps and tank, while you deal lower dps and can not tank. In fact, if I may be bold, I would say the dps class is worthless in its current state as DD (unless the group desperately needs someone to kill khaly's clones which are not that important in a group of all tanks compared to groups with fragile dpsers, since tank getting hit for low damage = more rage = more damage output). In which case, it brings back the problem of simply getting 5 tanks to do bosses for optimal boss kill group or simply solo as a strong tank to potentially save essence/time due to boss scaling.

    While your suggestion works in theory, there are a few facts you can not ignore. One, it is time consuming to get the boss into those specific position (and again and again) as some attacks are not meant to be tanked but rather dodged. For example, herold of anderworld does self explosion damage, which is not meant to be tanked for players of that level and gear. While you can trap that boss in a corner, you will have to move to avoid that special attack. Likewise with heredur, some special melee attacks should be avoided rather than tanked. And when you avoid, boss moves and you are forced to reposition again; very time consuming. Of course, if you're overgeared and/or overleveled, you can just stand there and tank, but that is besides the point. Likewise, it is good to avoid mortis' breath attack as a tank when possible, even when you can tank it.

    Your example of DPS in mortis is to take turns (as designated DPS) to hit boss once per turn? In which case, of course mortis won't target you, you deal much less sustained dps than the tank class. One can argue that a level 35 with blues/pinks can be just effective as level 45 "DPS" in killing souls; hence once again, you see the design problem with DPS and support classes. Especially at Mortis, the tank does 90-95% of the work.
     
  13. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador


    Herald the underworld hard is the only one I know that does a lot of damage when he blows up. Was this avoidable?

    Heredur does not do anything that was not tankable if you close. Or did I do something wrong...

    Mortis if you have a low dps thank that is geared to the teeth then there is no way he is going to do even 10% of the damage from what I have experanced. He just keeps hate and moves him around. The dps the others do simply depends on how good you work together and how good you are dealing with souls.

    There is the soul stone way of killing mortis lol but that is best if the mage has final supernova... And each person in the group uses 5 soulstones...
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  14. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    A couple of points about aggro, or aggression:

    1. Damage aggro is a very practical way for monsters to survive. 'Kill whatever will kill you first. Then kill what is most dangerous of the leftovers. Every once in a while re-evaluate what is most dangerous, and pick new targets if necessary.'
    It makes a good tactical policy for players, too. Some teams do very well, when they take out the biggest threat first. Less personal damage, faster play.
    Another tactic is for one player to keep the target busy tracking the aggro bait, while the other players lay on fire and stay out of danger. Slow, but effective.

    2. The use of the word "hate" instead of the word "aggro" is misleading and counter productive.
    You don't have to hate a mosquito to smash it, or a fly to swat it, you just have to be practical, and act on your aggression. You don't have to hate the cow to enjoy a hamburger, you just have to be willing to have someone harvest the cow, so you can get a burger.
    The emotional drama of hatred may feel good temporarily, but long-term it damages the quality and quantity of life for the carrier as well. Better not to legitimize hate, and just use "aggro."
     
  15. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    The reason I enjoy playing the game is the fact that it is not a Tank and spank set-up. No healer, no critical positiong and no instadeath if you pull agro. My RA is one of the finest tanks out there BTW ;)

    Adding to the agro conversation: There is one other factor for agro that is not specifically factored in with Baragain's 3 types above and that is Proximity. Proximity acts as some kind of damage modifier for agro. The closer you are the higher the multiplier. A DK doing less damage than a RA/SW at range will hold agro based on their direct contact with a mobile target up to some threshold that I think is % based. There is a threshold that can be exceeded that will override the proximity and pull the target off the Tank that is in direct contact. This allows the ranged classes DPS to exceed the tanks DPS without pulling agro...to a point. You can test this yourself by going to a single mobile mob, DK without a weapon equipped. The Tank draws agro first visually then with a few strikes. RA or SW opens up. Their DPS will override the tanks within a couple of hits but the mob will not be drawn initially. A few hits later the mob moves to attack the ranged class, the Ranged class stops attacking and Tank continues hitting. Even though their hits are much smaller because of the no weapon factor, they will redraw agro within a few hits because they are in direct contact (proximity) and they tuck back in under the threshold. This is also why a well geared RA can draw agro at will by closing the gap and using Deathstrike while concentration regens, then dive away and continue precision strikes as tank redraws agro. Anyone that has played a game using a threat meter understands this process and although there is no direct agro skills to gain or dump agro, the process works the same and proximity is some kind of multiplier for damage agro.

    As a side note; this is also one of the reasons all the classes they have added have been ranged. Reworking the agro system would be "complex" to support a thin skinned melee class.

    If you think a 2H DK is doing more continuous damage than a well geared SW or RA you are mistaken. Each class has the capability for significant burst damage where they can have high DPS for a short period. This is a 2h forte. It's why they are PVP kings at the moment also. This does not mean the extended DPS of the fight favors the DK or that the DPS classes are obsolete.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
    silverseas likes this.
  16. ScientiaPotestasEst

    ScientiaPotestasEst Someday Author

    I already acknowledged proximity/distance as a factor in 2 of my posts above, but I am doubtful it is a multiplier modifier (unless you have source to back it up?). I believe it is a distant second to damage factor. The reason why mobs stop chasing after you after a while when you stopped attacking is the because the mob considers you as "exit from combat/inactive" and will switch back to combat with the player attacking it. A well-geared RA draw agro is because with deadly blow is good sustained dps, their sustained melee dps becomes higher than at range shooting 3 precision arrows than proceed to spam hunting arrows (lower sustained dps); not because of the distance working as a multiplier. Even then, most of the time 2h DK will still have agro with smashes than ranger with deadly blow. If you as a ranger is getting aggro from deadly blow, then the 2h Dk is probably not as well geared as you in fair gear/gems comparison. You can not ignore stats on a DK 2H surpass that of RA 1H bows. Also, keep in mind that DK smashes (with smash + 2h talent from tree) are higher damage % than RA deadly blow marked with deadlyblow talent + shortbow talent from tree. With better weapon and better talent damage%, it does not make sense unless ofc you're better geared. You're basically saying with lower base damage and lower skill damage %, you deal more damage.

    Are you sure? Do you have a source for this? Because I distinctly recall the reason is because it was based on the game Drakensang Dark Eye.

    I disagree, see above for explanation on smash vs deadly blow comparison. In fact, I argue ranger is better at burst damage than DK because of precision shots + adrenaline.
     
  17. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Read again.
    I hit everything :p;)
     
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  18. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    My bad Baragain, I should have seen that and known you'd cover it.

    On the main topic:
    Although I get your logic on this it misses a couple of pieces. Your premise is that 2H DK must be superior in defense and offense to the other party members to protect the party and since most end bosses are immune to support measures it makes the rest of the classes useless. Your words were much nicer and well stated. This is a violation of the standard of games like this, that one classes strengths offset the weaknesses of another class. And there is therefor no synergy from mixing classes. Since 2H DK's have no weakness what's the point of being any other class.

    I don't even argue with your initial thought that there is a design flaw. The balance of classes has swung wildly so that with new gear and skill/talent stacking the 2h DK is the easiest build to turn into a fun awesome character. For the 2H DK's that put in par effort with what it takes in the other classes to be completely BA they can reach a level very few others can from other classes.

    My premise is that other members of the party can have higher DPS and still not pull agro if done correctly. I can't offer any concrete evidence other than experience with all the classes, observation, and minimal testing.

    I however don't want to play a 2H dk. I built one to see what was possible and at level 45 he is damn good. But he will not be my main. I like my useless Ranger with its 6200 DPI, 11k HP, etc etc that doesn't need a DK for any reason, but often acts as one for the rest of the lowly DPS classes. I've soloed every mob in the game including destructor, mortis and Khally, and can do so because of extensive play, a little luck, and a passion for the class. But, since I can't offer anything other than the occasional smartass comment in party chat and you would rather have a mediocre built 2h DK in your party it is no harm for me. I enjoy farming alone and don't need anything from the mob you're killing anyway.
     
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  19. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    All's good... I like to poke at you when you make it so easy.:D
    SMH... and people say RAs are the poor neglected class. They really don't know, do they?

    I have met a handful of RAs like you, but for the most part, they are few and far between. The only thing I'll say to counter that is that it is easier to build a decent to good DK that can do it all, than it is to build a godlike RA who make most DK's blush.
     
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  20. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    Seems Tegan has nice population of qualified RA's. Most turn to PvP for entertainment, I am not of big fan of PvP in DSO so instead spend my time combining flawless gems and stocking supplies for the expansion found during endless runs. 50 points from "Legend" so time to find the uniques in one more set.
     
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